Interview with Baskin Oran
The 100th anniversary of the Armenian genocide is
approaching and Turkey’s stance toward this anniversary and the request for a
recognition of the crimes committed in 1915 is not yet defined. Ankara has,
nevertheless, recently abandoned the total denial position, thanks also to the
work of historians and researchers and the commitment of activists and
journalists to inform about the mass atrocities and deportations suffered by
the Armenian population.
The turning point in public awareness was the
conference "Ottoman Armenians during the decline of the Empire: issues of
Scientific responsibility and Democracy" held in September 2005 at the
Bilgi University in Istanbul, after being blocked twice by the authorities. The
conference - called "A Crack in the Wall of Denial" in an article by
the Turkish writer Elif Shafak for the Washington Post - was the first open
debate in Turkey on the official version of events of 1915 and an attempt by
scholars, writers and journalists to break a taboo.
Then, in 2007, the murder of Hrant Dink, the
Turkish-Armenian journalist founder of the bilingual newspaper Agos, was a
violent shock that turned the spotlight on the “Armenian question”, hitherto
confined to a minority of intellectuals. The funerals of the activist, who had
spoken about the mass killings of Armenians and encouraged the reconciliation
between Turkey and Armenia, were attended by over 100 thousand people shouting
"We are all Armenians" and "We are all Hrant Dink".
Another important step in the open debate on 1915 atrocities
was the "I Apologize Campaign", launched in December 2008 by Ahmet
Insel, Baskin Oran, Cengiz Aktar and Ali Bayramoglu and supported by other
intellectuals, to apologize for the "huge catastrophe that the Ottoman
Armenians were subjected to in 1915," through an online petition, signed
by 5,000 people in the first 24 hours, that rose to 30,000 by January 2009.
Finally in July 2014 Armenians and Turks intellectuals,
artists and academics launched the Manifesto "Together we have a
dream", which goes beyond the formal recognition of the genocide to ask
for "a peaceful era to begin between the people of Armenia and Turkey, in
which both nations respect each other and each other’s history”, and for the
repair of some of the damage and the help to the victims. The initiative seems
to find a support in the recent signs of willingness by the Turkish side, like
the condolences expressed, for the first time, by President Erdogan for the
99th anniversary of the genocide to the grandchildren of the Armenians killed
by the Ottomans.
Gariwo has asked some Turkish intellectuals whether their
Country is actually ready to face the "Armenian issue" without
prejudice. The first interview is with Baskin Oran, Professor of International
Relations at the Faculty of Political Sciences of Ankara University, an expert
on nationalism, minorities, religion-state relations, and columnist at
"Agos" since February 2000.
The Armenian-Turkish Manifesto “Together we have a dream”
shows that the attitude of Turkish intellectuals toward the Armenian genocide
issue has changed. But what about the majority of Turks: do they still deny the
genocide?
An uninterrupted and unbelievable change has been going on
since we held the very first conference on Ottoman Armenians in Istanbul in
2005. But there are two mental blocks that make it difficult for the majority
of Turks to learn about it.
First: “education”. Turkish philosopher Celal the Bearded
once said: “So much ignorance can only be due to education”. I think this needs
no explanation but I’ll say this much: I learned about the Armenian issue after
I was 40.
Second: the state of mind created by the term genocide.
People in Turkey associate this word with Nazis only. Any term but this one
would have made things considerably easier for us: crime against humanity or
monstrosity for instance, any term but genocide. When people hear this, they
close their ears with invisible membranes and oppose you, even if they readily
admit that savage things have been done in 1915.
There is more to it: the outcome of these two calamities
(1915 and 1933-45) is practically the same (mass killings, mass exile,
destruction of a civilization…) but the historical processes concerned are too
different to call them by the same name. The Nazis calmly planned and applied
it starting from 1933 in peace time, while 1915 took place during a war that
disintegrated the Empire. On the other hand, genocide is a strictly legal term
very loosely used politically.
Let me underline this again: Concerning the atrocities and
outcome of 1915 there is NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever between my thinking and that
of a Dashnak. The only difference is: I don’t use this term. I use “Ermeni
Kiyimi” or “Ermeni Kirimi” (Armenian slaughter, massacres, carnage, etc.) in
use among people of Turkey since 1915. This is the equivalent of “Holocaust”
used by the Jews, or “Metz Yeghern” in Armenia, which means Great Calamity, a
term unknown to the Diaspora who usually doesn’t speak Armenian. The Diaspora
uses the term genocide not only because its ancestors were cruelly killed by
the Ottomans and because the Turks shamefully deny it now; but also they know
that this is what really hurts the Turks of today. Understandable.
Since 2000 you are political columnist in Agos, weekly
newspaper of the Armenian community in Istanbul, founded by Hrant Dink, who was
killed in 2007. How far has Dink’s death affected the awareness of the genocide
within the civil society?
Hrant Dink is now a Saint in Turkey, even for those who have
no sympathy for Armenians, and saints are more powerful that living humans. I
am referring both to his way of talking to people, and to his unbelievable
funerals. Not only did he totally transform the civil society, but he did more
than that: He transformed whole Turkey altogether. It’s been years since that
affair can freely be discussed by everyone; no problem. Hrant was the most
important factor for this, with his life and his death. Did you see his dead
body lying facedown on the sidewalk of Agos? Did you see the torn up sole of
his right shoe?
The Azeri factor (the strong relation with Azerbaijan) is a
further reason for Turkey not to normalize the relations with Armenia. Could an
external factor, like the relation with the EU, push Turkey toward a different
policy toward Armenia?
Azerbaijan is for Turkey the most harmful State that exists
on earth. Relations with the EU is, by far, the most important incentive for
Turkey to come to normal, to democratize. Although it has been very difficult,
how do you think we were able to hold that conference in 2005? That’s because
Turkey, to reach the EU carrot, passed EU Harmonization Packages between 2001
and 2004. But the carrot is there no more and both sides are responsible for
it, let me say.
On the other hand, the external factor triggers the
development but the rest of it takes time, much time, not talking of the
reaction that comes when events are triggered from outside. And, mind you, that
reaction is directly proportional to the force and velocity of the foreign
intervention, especially when you have other national problems, especially
economic. To give you an idea: just think of how much centuries Europeans
needed to reach democracy after they accomplished the bourgeois revolutions.
Can you tell me how much you had cared for human rights, the sine qua non of
democracy, before the Second War? For
the Armenian question at least, we started about a decade ago; these things
take time, valuable time. But that doesn’t mean that this intimidates us. On
the very contrary: This invigorates us tremendously.
Pope Francis visit to Ankara and Istanbul puts the Christian
minorities in Turkey in the spotlight. Do you think the Islamic-rooted AKP government
has enhanced the Turkish Muslim nationalism so far that the situation of the
minorities might get worse?
No. This might be surprising for someone who is not familiar
with Turkey’s politics but AKP, compared to any previous secular government,
has been much more lenient on non-Muslims’ rights. But a lot of time is needed
to explain this. On the other hand, AKP is much harsher on the Alevis. Sounds
familiar? Thirty Years’ War?
Within the civil society are there non religious forces able
to counterbalance the Islamisation process?
None, for the moment. Civil society is the most vigorous
national factor for Turkey’s democratization, but Turkey needs more than that.
It needs powerful and reliable opposition, and this doesn’t exist yet.
Interesting and important: AKP was a real chance for Turkey and also for the
World. For the World, because it could bring Islamism down to room temperature,
meaning a marriage between Islam and democracy. For Turkey, because it could
bring the 1930’s nationalist politics of Turkey down to room temperature also.
In this respect AKP has been a failed experience comparable to the Democratic
Party (DP) movement during 1950-60, which was destroyed by a Kemalist military
coup in 1960. And now, the AKP is being destroyed by R. T. Erdogan, its leader.
This person has no logic, no manners, no brakes, no exit plan, no nothing: He
says that women cannot be equal with men, his police uses tear gas and water
cannon against totally peaceful sit-ins, his municipalities declare that
student homes should be stormed. That person suffers of grave hubris,
mythomania and megalomania, among others. But another fact is, he has no rival
for the moment either. We have to wait till he destroys himself, and pray that
he doesn’t destroy the country as well. Sounds familiar? Although the
comparison is far from being perfect, who destroyed the Fascist movement in
Italy or the Nazi movement in Germany? The Allies?
by Viviana Vestrucci
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